Selling Zebras

If it's about fish in general, or it's a little bit random, then this is the place to post it.
dave
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Selling Zebras

Post by dave »

Hi all

Firstly I would like to thank Rob and everybody who runs this site for the effort they have put in. This has enabled many of us to breed this fish with varying degees of success.

It is also apparent that many of us put the welfare of this fish above any financial gain, sadly not all.

To date I have let 50 go, all of which I believe are to good homes, well they haven't been sold on.

I am also aware that other members let fish go without advertising, and I am sure they check out the purchaser as best they can.

Seldom do you see fish advertised on this site, which I think is a good sign, as I know there are networks of breeders forming who are exchanging young fish.

My real point of annoyance is when fish in the UK appear on ebay and especially when they are being auctioned it is who buys now the quickest, or the highest bidder, no thought is given to the welfare of the fish.

Then it becomes apparent that these sellers are members of this site whose only reason for advertising elsewhere is to command a higher price.

I have gained a great deal of knowledge from this site and if the need comes to advertise I would through this site.

So if members of this site are found to be selling to the highest bidder, how about banning them.

Take care

Dave
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Post by McEve »

Hi Dave,

I also think it's sad that fish are being advertized on Ebay without seller advertizing them here, and are very happy to hear that you would post in the sales section.

The reasons why a member would choose not to advertize them here is probably many, but I think one thing is that in the past we've had some... unpleasant..? discussions following the advert.

We will take some measures to avoid this in the future. It will amongst other things be based on information made easily available to buyers on what to look out for when buying fish, so as to avoid discussions in the sales and wants, and also information for the seller that might benefit him/her.

We also, with the experience Kingfisher possess, will consider other means of both buyers and sellers being able to advertize here without any fuzz.

As for banning people that do not advertize here.. :weird: I don't think think that's a good idea :P People are free to do what they please when selling their fish :) personally I don't blame people for trying to get back some of their investment, a hobbyist can only afford that much without the missus being PO'd :) It does cost to breed these fish! it costs to put money back into the welfare of the fish as well.

I think a better approach would be to encourage people to make their auctions public here.

Just my personal opinion, others might have a different one.
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Hi again

Post by dave »

Hi McEve

I am not advocating a blanket ban, or trying to stop people advertising elsewhere. I am not against people charging for fish, and market forces will prevail, more fish becoming available is the only thing that will depress price.

IMO selling the fish at an agreed price preset to somebody you have discussed the sale with, and auctioning the fish in the forum that is likely to produce the highest return, or just on ebay where the purchaser is unknown.

The latter two I would consider to be business transactions, the welfare of the fish not being taken into account. Profit being the main motive.

IMO, selling the fish following a discussion with the purchaser, the welfare of the fish is taken into account and enough money can be made to cover costs and make a small profit, or a fairly big profit depending on how productive the fish are.

I also believe it to be fact that many fish change hands between people, they may or may not be members of this site, without ever being advertised, at below ebay prices.

Then low and behold a week, a month later some of these fish become available on ebay. Using the trust that people have shown from this site and others to make a profit is in my mind undermining the site and it's members.

If somebody breeds the fish, then the individual decides, the more fish the better. I would also hazard a guess that most fish sold between members are at below ebay prices. A high degree of trust has been created on this site.

The banning suggestion is only for those who blatantly abuse it.

Take care

Dave
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Banning auctioneers?

Post by kingfisher »

Hi Dave

Although I understand your opinions and agree with most of it, we cannot ban users just because they sell to the highest bidder. Most LFS do the same, some are what we feel is responsible and only sell to the buyer they believe can take care of it, others don't.

What we have to do is to educate the market and try to get a voice in where people looking for zebras are. I hear lots of fish are sold to Japanese buyers for lots of money. We have absolutely no control over the market in Japan and we have (as far as I know) no Japanese users in here. So how do we inform them?

When we (McEve and I) sell zebras we have a clause in the contract where we want the option to buy the fish back if the buyer is ever going to sell them again. I am sure others here do the same. But we cannot force people to do these things and there is no way we can absolutely say that a highest bidder on Ebay will not be a good zebra owner.

We have no power and banning a user for selling on Ebay just won't be fair. We can only give out information and urge people to do the right thing with the fish.

In addition we can monitor the auction sites for sales of zebra plecos. Such monitoring can be shown here and thereby inform the users of our forum of whats going on there. I'll look into this and the other issues mentioned above. Please let us know if you have other suggestions.

Thanks :)
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Post by TwoTankAmin »

There are always two sides to any issue. As we all know getting zebras to the stage where they breed successfully can be a daunting and expensive task. While some of us can handle the money side with less worry, many others sacrifice to do so. Cab you balme somebody who has risked sever thousand dollars or pounds for wanting to get their money back?

I think most here would agree that in the long run the more folks who have these fish and do spawn them the better. For some buyers Ebay or AquaBid may be the only place they are aware of to get zebras. If nobody sold on those sites, these potential desireable owners might never have the opportunity to find them.

Moreover, not everybody has the same goals and motivations when it comes to spawning fish. Many folks do it to help defer the costs of what can be an expensive hobby. For them the maximum dollar amount is important.

I am fortunate in that I can both afford my hobby and have gotten a bunch of fry. I have done my best to screen buyers and to date have turned down 2-3 folks for every one I sold to. Not everyboody has this option.
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Post by John »

In my opinion a hobby is something you like to do and most of the time it costs money.
If you are in a hobby to make money imo your not a hobbyist but a professional.
And if you are such a professional on a forum acting as a hobbyist "saving a species for the world" makes you imo a :clown: .
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Re: Hi again

Post by McEve »

dave wrote: Then low and behold a week, a month later some of these fish become available on ebay. Using the trust that people have shown from this site and others to make a profit is in my mind undermining the site and it's members.
Hi Dave,

Has this happened to you?

John, agreed
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Post by Rob »

Hi Dave

I must admit I see where you are coming from and do understand your arguement. However I think it could be counter productive trying to "police" the sale of zebras outwith ZP.com.

IMO, the best thing that was can do, as stated by Kingfisher and McEve, is to educate and ensure that we have a wide enought audience, that it is automatically taken for granted that this is the place to get zebras. This will do two things, provide a more even platform and resource for people to assess the potential buyers, and also weed out those who are merely in it to "make a quick buck".

People will always sell on ebay, and pay what they see fit, but by continuing to ensure that the sellers on the site act with integrity and a degree of realism (i.e not filled with greed) , we will hopefully eventually make what goes on in ebay seem unreasonable. i.e. as previosuly stated, it will drag the price down. If everyone knows that the place to go for "y" is "x", then who would anyone go to "z" when it costs more and is of inferior quality.....( did I just confuse matters with that analogy)
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Re: Hi again

Post by John »

McEve wrote:
dave wrote: Then low and behold a week, a month later some of these fish become available on ebay. Using the trust that people have shown from this site and others to make a profit is in my mind undermining the site and it's members.
I only sold one zeb untill now and had this happening to me...
(nothing to do with this site though)
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dave
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Hi Everybody who has Posted

Post by dave »

Hi all

Kingfisher with reference to what is sold in Japan and LFS's, I agree this is out of range of this site, and at no point, after reading back did I ever imply it was.

I agree with John about this being a hobby, but I can't fault TT's approach, many hobbyists over the years have funded themselves by selling surplus fish, myself included. Whether I made money or not was never an issue.

Now for ebay. I have made my views known, and perhaps I am too much of an idealist.

As Kingfisher mentioned monitoring, if it prevents people buying from members, then selling on at a profit shortly after on ebay or another forum, for profit.

While maybe agreeing with Rob that my proposal could be counter productive, allowing members to knowingly profit out of other members is not beneficial in any shape or form.

Take care

Dave
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Re: Hi Everybody who has Posted

Post by John »

dave wrote:Now for ebay. I have made my views known, and perhaps I am too much of an idealist.

You better stay this way dave :)

dave wrote:I agree with John about this being a hobby, but I can't fault TT's approach, many hobbyists over the years have funded themselves by selling surplus fish, myself included.
If you can fund yourself with breeding i can't see anything wrong with that as long as you put the needs of the fish at first and sell to (in your opinion at that moment) trustworthy people for reasonable prices.
I just don't like people in the zebrascene who are only in it for the money under false pretences :twisted:
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dave
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Selling Zebs

Post by dave »

Rob wrote:
IMO, the best thing that was can do, as stated by Kingfisher and McEve, is to educate and ensure that we have a wide enought audience, that it is automatically taken for granted that this is the place to get zebras. This will do two things, provide a more even platform and resource for people to assess the potential buyers, and also weed out those who are merely in it to "make a quick buck".

Rob
Hi again

I understand all of the above. As breeders know in the UK, probably elsewhere there is no need to advertise this fish. Many breeders also like to know where the fish are going and have it's welfare at heart.

The reluctance to advertise, well you will be inundated with requests, the fuss really doesn't bother me.

There also seems to be a great deal of secrecy about who gets whose fish, myself members who take fish off me can and do announce it.

Now my point being if you want people to come here, or this be the place to get Zebras it has to be evident on the site that it is possible.

You may get requests for fish, refusal may offend, but we can't be nice all the time.

Take care

Dave
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Post by stang1 »

I think it's best being able to buy fish through a forum like this but sadly, they are not always available. We brought our 4 Zebras from e-bay for quite a price but had been on the lookout for months to no avail.
The man we brought them from was very genuine and wanted to make sure they were going to a good home, also asking us to keep him informed on their progress.
Sadly, not all people are genuine and honest making it harder to know if your fish are going to a good home or not. If our Zebras were to have fry then I would prefer to advertise on here rather than anywhere else.
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Post by Jo's Zebs »

To be fair since I have been posting on this forum I have had a lot of interest in the chance of me parting with my zebs for what can be said 'silly money'. As with the whole internet you just don't know who you are dealing with. I have used ebay to buy fish and have bought other plecos from Marcus at Pleco aquatics who also had an ebay shop maybe I have been lucky bought loads of stuff from ebay with no probems and it can be a good advertising tool. I personaly think that it is a case of changing times. I would rather look on the net than go to a shop there is far more choice and I think choice is what it is all about.
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Post by smithrc »

Well I'm about to rock the boat here....

Having had a son about 8 months back (time flys!) our financial situation is somewhat different now to what it was when we set about our fish keeping hobby....

I've had 20+ tanks running in the past - but lack of money has meant that I have had to sell up and I'm currently down to 7 in total with 3 of them soon to be shut down...

I love to live in my ideal world where I can give zebras a new home for a gesture price... but unfortunately I cant afford my ideals at the moment...
and I defiantly cant afford to ignore the fact that I can get 3-4 times the price I'd like to sell them at, by selling on ebay.

I've advised people on here about the prices on ebay - and that they are quite often silly prices compared to what you "could" get them for from a breeder... but I'm going to be eating humble pie and going against my own advise as I think I've decided to sell them on there....

I'd like to think my auction will be the best I've seen on ebay - I'll be including great pics of the actual fish with lots of information and history...
But its threads like this that will make me think twice about linking to this site...

Personally I have a great deal of respect for Stang1.... She paid a lot more for her zebs than everyone is recommending - but is very happy and is undeterred by everyone telling her this and that about prices.

I paid a lot of money for my original group of zebs... that was 2 years ago and the prices haven't gone up that much since then... fair enough, the age of the zebs has gone down - but that's due to supply and demand... If we're expecting the market to change due to the efforts of us "small time" breeders - It'll take a lot more than us to effect the change.

I'll would advertise the little guys on here... but with the price I know they can fetch on ebay.... I'd put an asking price on them that would get people wound up, I can see the replys now and its not worth wasting the bandwidth on.

Oh what to do... what to do..
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